Hello, friends. Welcome to the Case for Life podcast. I’m your host, Scott Klusendorf, president of Life Training Institute. Life Training Institute is the prime sponsor of this show. Please visit their website at ProLifeTraining.com. Well, today I have a special guest with me, the man responsible for getting me into the pro-life movement, a gentleman by the name of Greg Cunningham. Greg has been a mentor to many of us in the pro-life movement, and I could list a lot of names here. But Greg, before we go any further, I think it’d be great for our audience to get a little bit of a biographical sketch on you. Can you give us a little bit about your history before we go into what’s going to happen with elections and what your role has been in the pro-life movement? Sure. And I’ll keep it brief because I have a modest background. So I’ll keep it as brief as I can. I am a retired special assistant U.S. attorney. I was a military lawyer. I served 6 years on active duty in the Air Force, 25 in the Ready Reserve. Most of that time as an intelligence officer doing. strategic analysis and strategic planning kinds of things. So I have an analytical background in strategy and tactics in a military milieu, if you will. I’m a former state legislator in Pennsylvania. I wrote much of Pennsylvania’s abortion control legislation. I worked in legislative affairs with John Bolton, to drop a name, at the US Department of Justice in Washington. I spent probably 4 years with the Justice Department, 2 years in Washington in legislative affairs and 2 years here in Los Angeles as a special assistant U.S. attorney. I started a group called the Center for Bioethical Reform about 31 years ago. Scott and I got to know one another about that time, and he has been an enormous blessing to the pro-life movement. God has used him so powerfully And at a celebrity level, I mean, with people who would be well-known to many of Scott’s viewers, contacted him on the strength of his reputation and said, I want to get more involved in pro-life activism. I’m not sure how to discuss the issue. Can you give me some guidance? And he’s done that, and he’s trained. Countless, I mean, thousands and thousands of students and people, just the typical parishioner in church who wants to know more about this speaker training for pro-life groups. So he has left his imprint on the pro-life movement, and we thank God for that. Well, Greg, I have to add here that it all started with you. And my viewers may not know how I got involved in this because I haven’t talked about it much. But your future wife, Lois Honeycutt, who became Lois Cunningham, obviously, began bugging me to get involved in pro-life work. in the summer of 19 90. I was an associate pastor at a church in La Crescenta, California. That’s a suburb of L.A. And Lois would contact me and say, hey, our center is doing such and such an event. You ought to attend. And I really didn’t get that involved. I think I had her out to speak to the youth one time. But other than that, I really wasn’t doing much on abortion. I certainly would have told you I was pro-life. But Greg, like so many you and I know at the time, I said I was pro-life attitudinally, but my behavior did not match my rhetoric by any means. Well, that all changed one Saturday morning in November of 1990 when Lois had arranged for Greg to come speak at a church called Christian Assembly in Eagle Rock, California, for a pastor’s breakfast. And I heard about this and thought, sure, I’ll go. Why not? Free food. Interesting speaker. And Lois told me, you’re going to like this guy. I promise. And she was right. I showed up. And the interesting thing, though, Greg, the house wasn’t packed. But to your credit, even though the attendance was dismal, you would think pastors would come to an event like this, but they didn’t. You nevertheless did not let that deter you from delivering a message that absolutely changed the trajectory of my life. And I sat there listening to you, and I thought, man, I like this guy. He’s a pro-lifer who doesn’t hurt the brain to listen to. He’s intelligent. He’s making very good arguments. But then you did something that changed everything for me. you showed an 8minute video depicting abortion. I had never seen abortion. And I watched that video and I thought, man, I am no different than the priest and the Levite who pass by on the other side of the road. I say I care about this, but I don’t act like I care about it. And I realized that day that something needed to change so i went home from that event and i took that vhs tape you showed vhs tapes were these rectangular things for any of our viewers that don’t know what we’re talking about and i showed that same video to my wife stephanie and i said to her i think my future has just been altered by what i saw this morning and it was you that did that and i continue to benefit from your mentorship and the thing that that sticks out with me there’s 2 things about you that have stuck out with me Number one, your insistence that we need to reach this culture visually. And I remember one of your quotes being that has stuck with me. When you show pictures of abortion, abortion protests itself and that when people see abortion, it’s a necessary predicate because it changes how they feel about it. as a predicate to changing how they think and ultimately behave. And I’ve seen that happen over and over again. And then the second thing you said that just that you’ve said many times that have just changed everything. There’s more people working full time to kill babies, and they’re all working full-time to save them, and that’s because saving babies is very costly while killing them is very profitable. And saving babies is so costly that many people who say they care about the issue do just enough to salve the conscience, but not enough to stop the killing. I mean, that’s the kind of impact you’ve had on me and many others that are in this, and I am most grateful for you. If you don’t mind, I want to jump into what’s going to happen. We’re recording this the day before the national election. And I’d like to just get your sense of where the country is on abortion politically, because you’ve got experience in both realms. What are you seeing as you look out? It’s a tale of 2 cities. It’s the best of times and it’s the worst of times. Over the last 18 months or so, the pro-life movement has lost 7 consecutive ballot initiative campaigns on abortion. Abortion has now been enshrined in the state constitutions of 7 states, states like Ohio, states like Kansas, states like Missouri, states such as michigan kentucky these are states many of them are red states um and the democrats and i’m i’m i’m going to say democrats and i don’t care who’s offended by that the democrats are using these ballot initiatives to drive turnouts they’re doing it right now uh they they when the the dobbs decision reversed roe versus wade uh and and empowered the states to begin restricting access or regulating access to abortion. The Democrats seized on that as an opportunity to exploit the devastating fact that the pro-life movement has worked very hard to hide. If anybody wants to debate that with me, I would be delighted to engage them. 2thirds of the American people going back decades, and these are very stable public opinion research numbers, 2thirds of the American people have for a very long time believed that abortion ought to be lawful in the first trimester of pregnancy. And and that’s that is devastating, not least because 90 percent of abortions are performed in the first 90 days of pregnancy and in the first trimester pregnancy. The support for abortion in the second trimester falls off to about 40 percent. And in the third trimester, it’s down in the single digits. depending on whose numbers you’re looking at. So in subsidiary questioning, exit polling and what have you, that plumbs the question of why people are so accepting and not only accepting, but they’re but they promote abortion rights, they demand abortion rights in the first trimester, but that enthusiasm, if you will, diminishes in the second and it reaches the vanishing point in the third trimester, is the question people are asking themselves, and they don’t ask it at quite so sophisticated a level, they wouldn’t verbalize it in exactly this way, but they’re making form and function They’re asking form and function questions. What does the baby look like and what can the baby do at various stages along the timeline from fertilization to full-term delivery? And the more infant-like they perceive the baby to be, the less supportive they are of abortion rights. In other words, the more the baby looks like a baby, the plan form, the phenotype of the baby looks humanoid, if they can see the baby moving, if they can see the baby’s heart beating, those kinds of things, all of which are indicators of humanity from which people derive the idea that maybe the baby’s entitlement to rights of personhood is more substantial than we thought it was, they come to these conclusions at least superficially, based on how they perceive the baby. And we have begun saying to anybody who will listen a variation of what Scott very eloquently described a few moments ago, and that is, Unborn babies are their own best advocates. And whether they’re being viewed on ultrasound or more recently with more modern technology such as endoscopy, we now can show people what a baby looks like at 3 weeks alive in the womb. And there are Some really excellent resources that have been produced, films on pregnancy, on prenatal development by, amazingly, the National Geographic Society, by the Discovery Channel, by the BBC, by public television. None of these organizations are conservative. None of them are anti-abortion by any stretch of the imagination. And they’re not advocacy pieces. They’re just science. It’s just the science of prenatal development. The best of those resources is at a relatively new website, that can be viewed at erf.science. There’s a new group called the Endowment, I’m sorry, called the Education Resource Fund, the Education Resource Fund, erf.science. And they produced an app called See Baby Grow. And what’s distinctive about the content at the website and on the app is that it’s largely endoscopic imagery that virtually no one has ever seen before. It’s using an endoscope to image the actual baby alive in the womb. It’s not animation, it’s not a reflected energy technology like ultrasound or magnetic resonance imaging or what have you. You’re looking at the baby And if you go to erf.science, you’ll see a 3week embryo whose heart has just begun to beat. It’s right there on the homepage. It’s amazing. It’s right on the homepage. It’s just started beating. Now, it’ll take one more week for the fluid that it’s pumping to become blood. But it is beating, and you can see it. And we get into all these esoteric Semantic arguments about is it a heart tube that is pulsing or is it a heart that is beating? Lay all of that aside for a moment. Those are sort of largely political arguments. Just look at the video. A guy named Warner Wolf used to say he worked for, among many other sports organizations, he was a sportscaster. He worked for EWTN, and he would describe something, and then he would say, roll the tape. And that’s what we say, roll the tape. Well, just look at this, and you decide what you’re seeing. These babies are their own best advocates. You can be the most eloquent, best informed, interesting speaker in the world. And all of that’s very important, there’s no substitute for showing people who this baby is. Look at the baby. So we say abortion is its own worst enemy. If you show people what abortion is, if they have a functioning conscience, it sort of ends the argument. And if you show people who the baby is, if they have a functioning conscience, it sort of ends the argument. So this prenatal imagery, an embryo or an early fetus is its own best advocate. Just show people who the baby is, how infant-like the baby is from the very beginning of pregnancy. And on the other side of the coin, when we want people to understand that abortion is far more horrifying than they imagined it to be, and it’s so inhumane that it certainly ought to be outlawed, And that doesn’t mean we punish women who abort, but we punish the people who abort the pregnancies of women who are being victimized, they’re being lied to, they’re being told there’s nothing there, they’re being told it’s not a baby, they’re being told that abortion as a consequence is a morally inconsequential act because they are being the doctors who are performing these procedures, prescribing the pills, et cetera, are guilty of malpractice in the sense that the decisions these women are making are not based on informed consent, because doctors are consciously attempting to withhold information, particularly about prenatal development, but also about the magnitude of the evil that abortion represents, because they don’t want women to have access to any information that would diminish the likelihood of their being willing to kill their baby. So they want women to believe their baby is a blob, a blob of tissue, a clump of cells, and that there’s really nothing there that you ought to be concerned about when you terminate the pregnancy from an ethical or moral or spiritual perspective. All of that dissembling gets swept away when people go to the erf.science website and look. There’s imagery there 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 5 weeks, 6 weeks. In 6 weeks, the baby’s hands and arms start to move. The baby’s turning its head. There are subtle movements, but they’re clearly discernible uh 8 weeks isn’t there’s 7 week embryo there there’s an 8 week embryo there multiple embryo uh 8 weeks is the age stage of the upper end of the age range at which abortion pills can be lawfully prescribed now we know they’re being uh the people are accessing abortion pills well beyond 8 weeks but that’s at least that’s the That’s the supposedly ethical protocol, and in some instances, it’s supposed to be the law. But look at an 8week embryo. It looks like a baby. It looks like a baby from very, very early in pregnancy, and yet the pro-life movement has been almost reflexively hostile to the use of imagery, and not just abortion imagery, but even the imagery of prenatal development. Why is that? Well, I think part of it is When we’ve approached other pro-life organizations and we’ve tried to get them to use prenatal imagery, I think part of the reason that we get turned away is because the pro-life movement is, and conservative groups generally, not just specifically anti-abortion groups, but conservative groups generally, are very, very competitive in the same way that the churches are very competitive. They see all of this as a 0sum game. If you’re attracting attention, that attention gets diverted away from what they’re doing. They weren’t responsible for creating this imagery, and so they’re afraid and sort of embarrassed to use it because they think, you know, we don’t control it, we didn’t create it. And if we’re publicizing the activity of a group, promoting a group that’s not us, that risks sending donors away from us. We tried to get the March for Life to allow us to show prenatal development imagery, and they turned us away twice. And they very explicitly admitted that they didn’t want any imagery displayed on the National Capitol Mall during the March for Life that would divert attention away from their activities. What are their activities? If they have a stage set up and they have politicians who calm down, God bless them, and they give speeches that some intern wrote, they probably didn’t even read till they got there, and they’re shallow, they’re superficial, and nobody will remember them, you know, like ten minutes after they hear the speech. Here’s an opportunity to embed in the minds of the large numbers of young people who attend this event. This is a baby. Here’s an app. You can download this app. You can begin sharing the content on the app. All these kids have phones. They’re all active on social media. You put the app on your phone and you start sharing this content with everybody in your sphere of social media influence. But there’s just so much competition in the pro-life movement that they turn us away. It’s an embarrassing thing, but it’s a big part of the reason we’re losing. I remember something you said years ago that I didn’t believe when I first heard it, but I believe it now. You made the point that some pro-life groups guard their mailing lists tighter than the Marines guard gold at Fort Knox. And I thought that’s an overstatement until I got into the work myself, and I find that to be the very case. And I’ve also found that same reluctance to showing visuals. And I’ve often wondered, why would we partner with Planned Parenthood in covering up the very thing that we’re trying to expose? And yet there are people in our movement and in our churches that want to keep the imagery away. And one of the things I remember you saying is that if pastors are not more horrified of abortion than they are terrified of preaching about it, they’re going to remain silent. Can you unpack a little bit more about why clergy in particular are averse to getting at the heart of what the abortion issue is about? The Barna Group, which is a public opinion research group that specializes on church affairs, public opinion within the body of Christ, recently published survey results pursuant to which they said they found in interviewing roughly five hundred Protestant pastors, only 20 percent of them said they felt adequately prepared, equipped, trained to deal with social issues on Sunday morning from the pulpit. That means 80 percent of our pastors are avowedly unprepared to deal with this issue. Why is it that, and I just, I’ve read the statistic repeatedly, you’ll see it, it pops up every election cycle, Forty million, forty million self-identified evangelicals are not going to vote tomorrow. 40000000. And that is a devastating statistic that goes right to the point that there is a total absence of spiritual leadership from the pulpit. People aren’t being told, you need to get registered. They’re not being told, you need to get informed. They’re not being told, you need to vote. They’re not being told that you’re in America, which is a representative republic. We are the government. If you look at the Old Testament and the New Testament, God again and again holds the sovereign, holds the government accountable for just governance. We are the government, and God held the pharaohs accountable for governance. who were just governance. He held the Herods accountable for just governance. He held Caesar accountable. It’s a long list all the way down through the procurator, Pontius Pilate, et cetera, et cetera. We stand in the place of all of those sovereigns, all of the public officials who were held ultimately accountable for just governance because we have a vote. Nobody to whom Jesus was preaching had a vote. Nobody to whom the apostles were preaching had a vote. We have a vote. So we will be held accountable for the way we exercise our franchise. George Barney—now, why isn’t this happening in our churches? It’s not happening because our Bible colleges pathetic on these kinds of issues. And it’s happening in our seminaries because our seminaries are pathetic. People who teach in these institutions have no idea what they’re doing. I’ve talked to them by the painful hour. They don’t understand the facts. They don’t understand the arguments. It’s not a priority for them. George Barna, not the Barna Group, but George Barna, He did a survey some years ago, again, of Protestant pastors. My recollection is about a thousand of them asked to list their spiritual gifts in descending order of prominence in their ministry. Only 7 percent of them used the word leadership. That means 93 percent don’t see themselves as leaders. They see themselves as teachers, preachers, worship leaders. They see themselves as counselors. They see themselves as whatever. They don’t see themselves as leaders. They don’t see themselves as leaders. They say they’re not adequately trained to deal with any of this. And then we wonder why we don’t have the church. And if we don’t have the church, we wonder why red states are putting abortion rights in the state constitution. I mean, this isn’t even complicated. Yeah, you know, something I’ve heard you say before that I think hits the nail on the head, you’ve said some of our pastors, or many of our pastors, are so seeker-sensitive, they’re believer-worthless. And they somehow think that their job is to respect a congregational consensus on abortion. No, their job is to forge one by bringing a biblical worldview to bear on the thinking of their congregants. And somehow a lot of Christians A lot of our Christian friends think there’s this bifurcation they can straddle between what they believe spiritually and how they live that out in the real world, including the political world. And they see no connection between the 2. And that’s because there’s been a failure of spiritual leadership to connect the dots for people. Yeah, that’s exactly right, Scott. And what we’re recommending now, and now that we have tools that have never been available before, all of this prenatal development, visual content, websites like erf.science and on the website, the See Baby Grow app, what we’re recommending to pastors is you don’t even need to say the word abortion. That’s probably a bridge too far relative to where your congregation is right now, relative to where your training is right now, relative to where your experience is right now. Take a Psalm The Majesty of Prenatal Development. There are at least 18 Scripture references that describe God creating us, knowing us from our mother’s womb, creating us in our image, etc. And you can show people the majesty of prenatal development in our churches and relate that to those 18 Scriptures without ever saying the word abortion. and you’re you are in so doing striking at the heart of the principal problem that we face in america regarding abortion um 2thirds of the public and i these are people in the church and out of the church 2thirds of the public think the first trimester baby is a clump of tissue a blob of cells whatever um and if you don’t change that problem Nothing else you’re trying to do is going to work, because why should I care about abortion if abortion merely excises a clump of cells or a mass of tissue? I mean, why would I care about that? And one of the projects that we’re working on right now that we hope will help compensate for the utter failure of Christian education to prepare pastors is to lead their congregations, asks a very simple question. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, which, by the way, your viewers will recall, was Christ’s answer to the question, who is my neighbor? Because Christ got into a discussion with a law professor who said, what must I do to inherit eternal life? I think it’s the 10th chapter of Luke, if I recall correctly. Yes. And Jesus said, God, love your neighbor. And this guy, being a lawyer, he shoots back, well, who is my neighbor? I’m sure hoping Christ would give him a narrow reply, but Christ gave him the most expansive reply you can imagine. And so we have to ask ourselves when we’re talking to a pastor, who is our neighbor? Is our neighbor an unborn child? Well, okay, let’s start with, is our neighbor a born child? Is our neighbor a newborn baby? Nobody who has a functioning conscience or any sort of a person of faith would say, ah, no, a newborn baby is not my neighbor, in the sense that Christ intended when he said we need to take risks and make sacrifices for the well-being of our neighbor when our neighbor is being in peril. Okay, what about a fetus in the 9th month? Well, what about a fetus in the 8th month? And start back down the timeline. What about an 8week embryo? What about a 6week embryo? What about a 3week embryo? We now can show people every one of the babies that I just described. We can show people using endoscopy and very, very high-end ultrasound, very high-resolution ultrasound, most of which imagery has never been seen before. We can show that to people. A pastor can stand in the pulpit and say, who is my neighbor? And we’re working on a project right now that starts with a newborn baby, and it starts actually with a parable of the Good Samaritan, and then says, who is my neighbor? Is this my neighbor? And you’ve got newborn, and then you come back down the timeline. It is incredibly effective. It’s entirely visual. with Scripture. And you never say the word abortion. No, and you can also press the question, what difference is there between this human being at the 3week stage and you, the adult, that would justify ending your life at that earlier stage? Yeah, great point. Great point. Greg, before we let you go, I wonder if you could reiterate for us that website that you mentioned earlier so that people can see exactly what you’re talking about. The name of the organization that has produced the website and the app is the Education Resource Fund. And the website URL is erf.science.org. And the name of the app is See Baby Grow. And this is incredibly important, not least because politicians from Donald Trump all the way down ballot are in full flight, Republican politicians in full flight from the abortion issue. They can’t get away from it rapidly enough. And the dodge that they’re using is they’re saying at the federal level, don’t ask me about abortion because it’s now a state issue. So you can ask your state legislators, you can ask your governor, but don’t ask anybody at the federal level. And Republicans in droves, Republicans at the federal level, congressional candidates, etc., are saying um that they will not support a a national ban on abortion because they think the issue ought to be resolved at the state level well because we don’t teach history anymore uh not very many people recognize that’s stephen douglas’s argument exactly popular sovereignty yeah exactly douglas said let’s let let’s let the states decide each state voted up or down yeah Right, exactly. And the territories, etc. And Lincoln said, no country can long endure half slave and half free. So this is cowardice, but it’s cowardice based on the fact that our politicians don’t understand the issue. Our political organizations, the Republican National Committee doesn’t really understand this. The Heritage Foundation, I’m calling them out. You can name your sources. It’s okay. We won’t edit you. Good. I mean, I love these groups. Susan B. Anthony, I love Susan B. Anthony. I can barely get them to take or return my phone calls until we convince politicians that this is a baby. It’s not the responsibility of members of Congress to convince the American people it’s a baby. It’s our responsibility to do that. And let’s take this argument that this is now a state issue, which I reject. I do, too. It’s both a state issue. It’s both a state and federal issue, but let’s assume for the sake of argument it’s a state issue. 26 states have Republican governors. 23 of those states have Republican control of both the House and the Senate at the state legislative level. Where you have a Republican governor in those 26 states, he appoints or she, the state secretary of health and the state secretary of education. And in both of those cabinet level posts involve responsibility for public education regarding public health kinds of issues. And we need to get into our schools with the science of prenatal development at the earliest possible level. Planned Parenthood is in kindergartens, for heaven’s sake, teaching kids lies about gender and lies about prenatal development. abortion and all the rest of this. It’s a real drag. They have their queens in there. Yeah. Exactly. A real drag. Yeah. Sorry. And we have done nothing. I know. It’s embarrassing. I understand why pro-life groups don’t want to talk to us because they’re humiliated by their incompetence or humiliated by Don’t get me started. But if this is indeed now, if the emphasis is going to be at the state level, let’s start with the 26 states that have Republican governors, 23 of which states have Republican control of the state legislature. Let’s use this brand new content that will attack the main problem we’re facing with 2 thirds of the American people saying it’s not a baby. That’s a that’s a problem we could easily solve. That’s right. We have the resources to do it. Let’s do it. I’m in dialogue right now, Greg, with a former pastor who still has influence over churches. He’s not a guy who got defraud. He has no moral failings, but his arguments on abortion are so bad, and he is absolutely convinced that there should never be federal law protecting the unborn. And what I find is a lot of our clergy are exactly as you said a moment ago, no sense of history. Our argument is that the unborn has a natural right to life in virtue of what it is, a human being. And as you know, natural rights are those rights that spring from our human nature. They’re pre-political. Government doesn’t create them. Government’s job is to recognize and protect them. For example, you and I do not have a right to vote in the next UK election, though we might want to because we’re both Anglophiles. But we do have a right not to be gunned down in the middle of Trafalgar Square when we visit London. And that right not to be gunned down is a natural right that stems from our humanity. It’s not a government creation through fiat or statutory law. And so many Christians don’t understand that the pro-life argument is based on the natural rights of the unborn. They think it’s all a creation of the state. Amen. Well said. Well said. And I hope everybody watching this excellent podcast will go to erf.science. They’ll download the app. They’ll start sharing the content. They’ll take it to their pastor. They’ll take it to their local pro-life group and say, why aren’t we working to get this kind of content into the schools? And unfortunately, the pro-life groups that have taken prenatal development into the schools or attempted to get it into the schools were using content that is entirely or almost entirely animations. Very easily discredited, very easily attacked. This is not primarily animations. The only thing that we’re able to determine that is animated in any of this is not AI, it’s not animations primarily. It is processes or anatomy or physiology that can’t easily be filmed. In those instances, there are very limited uses of animation. But here it is. Let’s start with the facts. The first thing they teach you in law school, don’t go to the arguments until you’ve settled the facts. What are the facts? Who’s the baby? Is the baby a blob? When you have the facts, pound the facts. Pound the facts. Yeah, exactly. And all the other side can do in response is pound the table loudly. Greg, it has been great to have you. I am eternally grateful for your impact on me and many others in the pro-life movement. And we will certainly spread far and wide the work you’re doing there with this new imagery. It’s phenomenal. I commend it to all of our viewers to go take a look at it. So before I let you go, quick prediction. What happens tomorrow in the election? Donald Trump wins unless he throws it all away between now and the time the polls close tomorrow. He is his own worst enemy. He is fully capable of saying or doing something in a race this close. He could say or do something at the very last minute. He’ll lock the guy up. Don’t let him anywhere near an iPhone or anywhere near a microphone for the next 24 hours. A Twitter feed, either. Yeah, I agree. You know, whatever, because in a race this close, he could say something that could cause late-breaking voters to turn away from him. So does he win? Yes, he wins narrowly if he doesn’t throw it away. By the way, I’ve seen the latest polling data in Florida where we as an organization have invested a fair amount of effort, and it looks like the pro boards are not going to get the 60 percent they need to pass there. I just talked to a source in Missouri that said the polling data there looks favorable to them. So there might be a little better news for pro lifers. We may not be over 9 tomorrow. At least I hope we’re not. We should win a few of these. Yeah, and that’s a very good point. Scott, I wish I would have said this earlier because we could have devoted a little bit more time to it. When we lose these ballot initiative campaigns that are so embarrassing, that we’re losing races that you almost couldn’t figure out how to lose if you were trying, the mask gets ripped off. And pro-life organizations for years have been told by consultants that The best way to raise money, the most effective way to raise money is to keep your donors enthused, keep them optimistic, keep telling them we’re winning and we’ll win more if you send us more money. The fact is we have been losing and donors are getting scammed. They’re getting misled. Joe Biden was forced out of this race by Democrat donors who said, if Biden doesn’t get out of the race, we’re not only not going to give money to his candidacy, We’re going to cut off down-ballot candidates on the Democrat side of the ticket. And it’s the donors who control the direction of activism. They control the direction of politics. Pro-life donors need to stop funding failure. They need to stop giving money to organizations whose idea of pro-life activism is to hold up a little blue sign that says, I’m the pro-life generation. Wow, that’s brilliant. Who cares, right? Yeah. It’s very millennial because it’s about me. I’m the pro-life generation. But it’s given us year over year over year of failure. And a lot of that is on our donors. And I say to my donors all the time, stop funding failure. Greg, a lot of these groups, when it came to these ballot initiatives, wouldn’t even talk about abortion. They talked about subset issues like parental rights, like your kid could be forced into a transgender transition without your knowledge. Everybody knows this is about abortion, and our side won’t even mention the word drives me insane well but so much of this is a lack of training so much of this is it’s pride so much of this is territoriality it’s a kind of a competitive kind of a competitive spirit but this donors will continue if donors continue to fund failure if they continue to incentivize stupid stuff pro-life groups will continue to do stupid stuff because they’re getting paid to do stupid stuff Well, I think too many of our colleagues, Greg, are convinced we face a marketing problem and they don’t get it. We face a worldview problem. The culture doesn’t agree with us. And we have to address this at the worldview level. And you’re doing that with these images. You’re doing that with the training you supply at CBR and the work you do through your team. I’m eternally grateful to you. Thanks for joining us today and be sure to hug Lois for us. I will do it. And another way of saying what you just said is we don’t face a messaging problem so much as we face an imaging problem. God bless. Let’s start with the facts. Pound those images. Appreciate you, brother. Thanks for joining us, folks. It was great to have you with us on the Case for Life podcast. Again, be sure you visit Greg’s sites that we will put up on the screen and make use of the abundant material he has there that will help you establish facts, not merely shout conclusions. That’s all for today. We’ll be back at you next time on the other side of the election. Lord bless till next session.