Is there a way to succeed in ministry long term or are the pitfalls dangerous and do we need to be aware of them? Got a great guest with me today on the Case for Life podcast, my good buddy Jason Jimenez, who’s going to talk to us and we’re going to discuss what it takes to do this work of pro-life advocacy, apologetics, ministry in general, in a way that honors God long-term. Now, Jason, this is a bit of a dark side to ministry that a lot of people don’t want to talk about, and that is the personal side of it, the side where you are guarding your character. I mean, I think of what the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians 5 about the days being evil. So we need to take care about what we do with our lives as ministers. You’ve done a lot of work with mentoring young guys, and so have I. We’ve both done this. We’ve both seen some incredible successes, and we’ve seen some very painful defeats. What are some of the pitfalls you might highlight for a young guy starting out or young gal starting out where you say, you know what, as your platform begins to grow, here are some things for you to look out for? Those are great questions, Scott. It’s always an honor to be with you. We’ve been colleagues for many years and you’ve encouraged my family. We’ve gone through a lot together. We prayed together. I think that’s where it starts. This is why we’re having this conversation because I mean, yeah, entering my 26 year of full time ministry from all over the country, working with various different generations and working with young people, like you said, and one thing that I would first say, like you were mentioning, that term platform is to let people know that ministry isn’t a platform. but rather it’s a fault, right? Or it’s a harvest and never losing sight of the fact that when God calls you, you aren’t sufficient in yourself to fulfill the calling. As in second Corinthians chapter 3, you were just mentioning Paul based on Ephesians 5. It’s about our sufficiency is in Christ. But before you even go there, one of the things that we want to help invest in a young person that God’s hand is on, the Holy Spirit is moving, or as Paul referred to it as the commissioning of God in their lives, is to ensure that they are walking in step with the Holy Spirit, what their personal life with Christ looks like, that there’s intimacy, there’s a sense of reverence. That they actually have. There’s a daily consecration that they put forward in their life with Christ before they jump into whatever quote business or platform or space that they’re about to enter is making sure that they’re being washed in God’s word. They’re grounded. They’re steadfast in God’s word. And so that is one of the big things that I’ve actually seen that has been a huge decline through the years now is that the younger generation of people in ministry are so, quote, busy addressing a lot of the issues, the negativity, the conflict, the division, the different worldviews that are competing against Christianity. And again, there’s a time and place for that. You and I know that as cultural apologists, that’s what we do. but you can never lose sight when you jump back to first peter three and verse 15 we always look at that apologia the defense the vindication of the gospel but before peter says to defend the faith he says but sanctify the lord god in your hearts And that is first and foremost, when I have an opportunity to walk into a room or a conference or one-on-one over coffee with a young person that God has called to be in ministry, is to really help them make sure that they’re grounded in their faith. And then secondly, like you and I, there has to be a bond. You have to have support. in your life of wise counsel people that you know like when we look in ministry you see the phases of different people moses couldn’t fully do the job without his brother you know if you look at david david had nathan who called him out right yeah he had jonathan along the way as he was called to be an anointed to be king it took over 20 almost years 20 years for before that even became a reality and yet jonathan was there as a as as a a trusted advisor and close companion who helped david remain steadfast in his calling to be king And then, of course, we look at Paul. Paul had Martinus. He had John Mark. He had Titus. He had Timothy. So when people are called into ministry, we make sure that it’s not just their vision that they’re capitalizing on and getting people to follow it, but making sure that they’re actually also being sent with people of different backgrounds that are supporting that commissioning and are going to be there to help them through it. That’s so vitally important. Well, even the title of your ministry, Stand Strong, is aimed at helping people stand for the long haul. And I think you made a very important distinction there between platform and ministry that honors God. There’s a lot of young guys out there and gals that have, you know— boatloads of talent that you and I might look at and go, wow, if we could only have half of that. But there’s something missing in the depth of their soul about having lived enough life to have some of the rough edges rounded off. I mean, I look back at how I viewed things in my thirties and I cringe. You know, I was not as teachable then as I am now. I’m so teachable now. I’m The reality is that, you know, when you live life and you walk through some painful stuff, you start to realize, A, you’re not invincible. You’re not infallible. And guess what? There are some things that are profoundly painful you walk through that there’s no easy answer for. And you and I have walked through that with some people we’ve known and love who The ending wasn’t the pretty one we had hoped for. What’s been the most painful lesson you’ve learned as you’ve grown in your maturity as an apologist, as a speaker, and one who has influence? You have great influence, and your work is phenomenal. And I commend my listeners and viewers to what you do. What has been the most painful lesson you’ve had to walk through? Well, I mean, we could talk for hours on that. And I think, let me start by just saying this, I actually think it’s through those trials and I’ll get into some specifics in a minute, but I actually think it’s through those trials and understanding as Paul, let’s go back to Paul in second Corinthians chapter one, he refers to God as the father of mercies and the God of all comfort. And so the comfort that you and I receive in these times of trials and turmoil, tribulation, whatever it is, loss of a loved one, personal sin, brokenness, tragedy in a family, consequences of a loved one that continues to repeat the sin, the bondage that’s corroding and being very destructive and have to stand aside and witness these type of things because of the wrong and bad choices that our loved ones make and how that can really affect us and inflict a lot of pain. Um, in weariness. When you and I, in those moments, and sadly, sometimes they go for years. I was just texting a dear friend whose son was living with him. He was in drugs. This man, Scott, you would love this individual. He’s not in ministry full-time like us, but he is. He is a financial advisor. He mentors men all the time. I mean, there’s not a week that goes by that this man is not having breakfast or drinking spending quality time with a young man who’s struggling in his marriage or struggling in his faith or just wants to have a godly man like this individual to pour into them. Well, just a few months ago, he woke up one day and he was surprised that his son was not eating breakfast starting the day like he normally does and went into his room and he had sadly, tragically, he died in his sleep. Now, he was on drugs for many years. He did a lot of bad things. He was in prison at 1 point. But thankfully, in the last few years, as he was going through recovery, he was able to spend that time with his parents that are in their sixties. And so no parent, as you know, they don’t want to be still raising a child who’s in their mid thirties. But that was their story. And, you know, he, he, we don’t know. I mean, just, just his heart just basically failed. I was just texting him, checking in on him. I’m going to spend some time with him. But I’m willing to do that because in your question, what were some failures or times in my life that really caused me to not only reflect on my faith, but to draw closer to the Lord. And let me start by saying this, I did not have the best childhood growing up. I grew up in Tucson, Arizona. My parents were basically forced to marry in the seventies because my mom was already pregnant with my oldest brother. And she was kind of a burned out Baptist. My dad was a Catholic. They both dropped out of high school. My mom was pregnant at 17. So by the time I came being the third son, they did not have a lot. They didn’t have an education. My dad couldn’t keep a job if it wasn’t for my grandparents on both sides. My family wouldn’t have made it financially. We were on food stamps. And then come to find out, as I got older, I started to reflect and look back through counseling. Me and a few other family members were molested by a family member. And nothing happened. There was no justice. There was no recognition of it. Everybody just swept it on the rug except for my mom. And my mom was probably the closest thing in my life. And she told me actually within, I think if I remember correctly, about 2 months before she tragically died suddenly in a car accident, she told me that God’s hand was in my life, that she knew that I was called to do ministry. She knew that. She prophesied over me. And I remember then fast forward, she died in ninety four and trying to cope with that. I was never angry with God. But what started to happen and this is one of my regrets early on in the ministry. And you had alluded to it earlier where when you were when you and I were younger, we again, you try to prove everything to everyone that you got it together, you know, and if something happens, you don’t really take responsibility for it. You’re not as humble anymore. And I always say this, is that I haven’t crashed and burned yet, right? But what started to happen, Scott, was I started to turn to pornography to cope with the pain in my life and the loss and loneliness. I didn’t know how to relate to women. I was molested. I had a bunch of family members who exposed me to porn when I was a child. And they all said it was innocent, you know? And And over time, as I was alone and feeling abandoned and was going through pastoral studies, and I started to work with middle school, and this was in the mid to late nineties. And I did, I had bitterness. I had stuff that I didn’t let go of. And I allowed that bitterness for years with some addictive behavior that I hid in. And it wasn’t until a crashing point in my marriage and with the people that were my spiritual, not just advisors, but my mentors, people that I worked under, several elders, that all that came crashing down. And it was actually a moment, Scott, where it was almost ten years in full-time ministry where I took a leave of absence, not just for my position, but I left the ministry entirely. And I devoted my entire time at that point in philosophy at the University of Arizona. And it wasn’t just I needed a break. I felt like I was misusing God. my role. I wasn’t loving people the way that as you and I look at scripture and seeing that the Bible teaches that pastors are overseers of people’s soul. first Peter 5, that we’re not to do things at a compulsion or greed. And I was looking within my heart, Scott, and I was seeing the loss and turmoil that I never really reconciled and really pursued and found healing. And yet for years, I’m telling people to find healing in the Lord. And it was a major shift in my life, I’ll tell you. I mean, I’m just giving the highlights, obviously. But that took a while with my wife. We were just newlyweds, just maybe a few years. And Tyler came our first, who’s now 21. And I never thought I was going to step foot into a pastor role ever again, to be honest, because I felt like such like a failure and I let people down. And most people are very forgiving. Most people didn’t really know what was going on. And I wasn’t going around sugarcoating things, but I had a lot of bitterness. Now, by the grace of God, God was there for me. My prayer life became more fulfilling. My relationship and honesty with my wife. I went to the people who were there for me, who basically had church discipline in my life that I had to submit to, even though I don’t think it was entirely right, but I submitted to it. It was about almost a 2year period when I finally came back and started to serve in the children’s ministry. That right there, I’m so thankful for, even though it was so difficult and hard. I mean, I couldn’t even step foot in the church for a while because I had so much church hurt as well. But that, when I look back, it was making sure, moving forward when God was saying, not only have I forgiven you, but I’ve raised you up to be a pastor and you are broken and you are insufficient without my help. But when looking back, if there’s one thing I can say for people listening now, even if people have been in ministry for 20, 30 years, we are not to live lives of bitterness. We are not to live lives where if we have not found true healing, we are not going to be the appropriate conduit or example for people to look to. If we can’t live what we’re telling him to do. And that was a huge failure early on in my life. You and I have walked through a very common painful problem. We did this together with a very close friend who ended up committing suicide. Very painful event for both of us back in 2000. And I remember sitting there with that individual at your house and talking with him. And you and I were doing our best to try to reach him. pour our lives into him, and it ultimately did not work. But I will never forget sitting there feeling totally helpless, like there was nothing I could do, and thinking to myself, what’s wrong with me? How come I can’t fix this problem? And sometimes I think there are things people face—depression, anxiety, other things, maybe spiritual attack, maybe a combination of all of it, that we find ourselves utterly helpless. And I know both of us struggled in the aftermath of that of, wow, what could we have done better? Did we miss some obvious signs? There is a difference, though, between working with our character and letting God do a work in us, and sometimes just we’re not enough. We’re just not enough to do what we think needs to be done at the moment. Can you speak to that? person that maybe is struggling with a great deal of depression right now. I know believers who think depression is a sign that they don’t love Jesus, that something’s wrong with their lives and they are deficient somehow. What did that experience with our common friend teach you about depression in particular? Well, yeah. I mean I think, 1, that it’s real. I mean before that even happened, I was already working on a book called Challenging Conversations, and one of the chapters is on depression. And so, of course, and then being a pastor, working with people, and obviously seeing an increase of depression and acute mental disorder, that sort of thing. My reluctancy of addressing it to some degree was just the controversy that’s surrounded by it with people within the church. Because you definitely have a prominent movement within evangelicalism, and I use that term loosely, who believe that if you suffer from anything that is not properly identified or diagnosed as normality And there’s something with your brain that’s causing you to either be medicated or seeing a therapist or that you’re always gloom and doom or you have the Eeyore complex or as Charles Spurgeon referred to as a grave in your brain, like just complete darkness. People think that either you’re not really a Christian because if you were, you wouldn’t be suffering like this. You wouldn’t be living in this type of sin. Or if you are a Christian, that you’re clearly in some type of sin and your faith is not as strong as you believe it to be. Well, I would say unequivocally that I reject both of those positions. And so when it came to our dear friend, after already working through not a theory But working through Scripture and dealing with a lot of cases alongside clinical psychologists and biblical counselors, there was no doubt in my mind, Scott, that and again, if we want to be specific, I would also say that there’s a higher level of depression that’s going on with people in full-time ministry, and we can touch on that if you want to. But one of the things that I was noticing was that, again, this was like something we didn’t want to talk about. We all knew that something was going on, something’s wrong, but we’re not willing to address it. And that is, there are a lot of Christians who put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, believe him to be the son of God, that they’re in dwell with the power of the Holy Spirit. And yet they suffer or are inflicted with a form of depression. Now there’s different levels of that, okay? Or there’s some form of suicidal ideation that’s going on, or maybe that there’s a mental disorder that requires this Christian to have to undergo some type of treatment that’s beyond just going to church, small group, et cetera. And when it came to our dear friend who we knew genuinely and authentically was a follower of Christ, but there was something that was over him, that was affecting him. And one of the things that triggered that you and I, after we went through all this, after the funeral, you know what I mean, and had time to sit on it and mourned, Which we still mourn. I mean, I told you, I was just texting the other day. I took one of my dear friends who had surgery because they were removing his cancer. And so I had his granddaughter with me and one of my kids, and we took her to the park. And again, it’s my way, just what we’re talking about in context is this guy’s in full-time ministry. He’s my pastor. He had cancer. He had to go through surgery. His wife is there taking care of him, and he has his son-in-law and his daughter living with them because they moved back from England, and they have a 4yearold daughter. And she’s very rambunctious, and it was just my way of saying as his friend Hey, well, let’s take your granddaughter so you can have a peaceful house, love on her. Well, I took her to the park where I took our friend who later, a few days later, took his life. And we spent about 3 to 4 hours at this park. And I was just looking over by the Ramada when it was raining that day when I took him to lunch. And then he wanted to go walk around the park. And it started to rain. And so we went under this Ramada. And we just sat under this Ramada, this Ramada. And I, and just, it glimpsed over there. And I just remembered that. Those final conversations I had with our dear friend. Now, one of the things that I learned that triggered him was deep love. in utter loneliness. Okay. Where our friend got to a point where he believed genuinely, like he was, I mean, he was so distraught by this Scott and this triggered already some of the depression that he had already experienced in his life because there was a lot of trauma that he went through and we don’t have to go into detail about it. But he had never like I talked about my story a few years back where I was not getting help for my bitterness and unforgiveness and was not finding healing. And so I was getting very critical and I was becoming very impatient. And then I would turn to porn as an outlet. Well, our friend believed that no one loved him. that he had nobody in life. We’re not meant to live that way. I remember that. We’re not meant to live that way. I remember when he looked right at me, and being one of his closest friends, he looked at me and said, do you really love me? And I was taken back by that. But you’re right, that was the despair and darkness. That triggered him immensely. And so one of the things that we are finding within the Christian community is that a lot of Christians are very lonely. and they don’t really believe they have people who will help them through whatever difficulty they’re going through matter of fact they feel ashamed so even already if there’s a stigma that’s attached to people who have depression you know again we always say this is it’s it’s no problem if you tell me like hey jason Pray for me because I’m going to go and have surgery to remove some cancer. And we’re like hot meals, there to support you, take your kids, grandkids, whatever we need to help support you. But the moment someone says, hey, I need to go to rehab because I just have this mental conflict. There’s just something going on that’s far deeper. We immediately think this person is insane. What is going on? I can’t trust them. I can’t be around them. This explains why they’re so awkward or weird. And a lot of people get afraid or become judgmental. And instead, what we need to do is say, yes, we live in a fallen world. We see this in Romans chapter 8, the world we are groaning to be reunited or to be restored back to our maker. And along the way, everyone has a story. And to some degree. Something happened, you buy into a lie, you perpetuate a particular sin that you think you have control over, or you start believing the lie, this simple lie, but think about how powerful and deluded this becomes when people say, no one cares about you. And that’s why you don’t ask for help. Or that’s why you don’t get on the phone and call your buddy Scott just to let him know, I’m thinking about you, I love you. We don’t do that because we feel that that’s being too transparent or too vulnerable. And what if it’s not reciprocated, right? Right. And then over time, let’s say you have a feud with somebody because if you go back to our dear friend, he was not in an environment that was actually healthy because his work environment was very hostile. So that all that would do is it would trigger even more of the loneliness and the despair to the point where he wasn’t even in the word of God anymore. Okay. And then COVID hit, which further isolated him. Exactly. Yeah. Well, this leads to something I think we ought to touch on here, and that is if you are a leader in ministry, whether you’re a pro-life apologist or an evangelist or a pastor, you are going to get hit with some very dark seasons of the soul. Churchill referred to his depression as his black dog. Mm-hmm. Spurgeon referred to it as bottomless sorrows. He couldn’t make sense of it. And we’re going to get hit with this stuff. And I think we need to think about this ahead of time rather than let it surprise us. It’s not, is it going to hit us at some point, but are we ready for it when it does? It’s coming. We are going to be challenged. We live in a very evil age. We are confronting very evil ideas. And you can bet the devil is out to get those who are trying to confront and expose him for who he is. And I think of young guys that are just starting out. What are some things you would say to them? Get these things. puzzle pieces or these pieces, building blocks in your life right now in place, what would be some things you would say? I think you mentioned one very important one. You need to get vocational friends that you can trust, that you can be very transparent with and be real with. But what else would you say? Yeah, I think one, and again, it’s not in any particular order, okay? Right. But one of the things I just think about is, If you’re called into full-time ministry, one thing that we have to understand is that you’re not trying to achieve a sweet spot terminology that you oftentimes hear in this crazy ministry entrepreneurial world where you buy these leadership books. The scripture never mentions the word leader. It mentions the word servant. So even just like we’re talking about earlier, the ministry is not a platform. Ministry is a harvest. And if you go to Matthew, and again, this seems like it’s very basic stuff, but I think we’ve abandoned the basics. Foundationally in first Corinthians 3, whether you plant or water or maintain, it’s the Lord who gives the increased and the foundation is of the Lord. And then at first Corinthians 4 or 5, we can never neglect or forget as we encourage people in the ministry is that it’s, we will receive praise from the Lord one day. That should be our ultimate motivation is to honor our King until he returns. And so when you go to Matthew, it’s Jesus. who plants the seed, not us. It’s our job to know where the seed is planted and to help to grow it. At times, there’s going to be Satan who swoops down to snatch away God’s word. So people that are in ministries, you have to be alert to know that you are to be on guard for a lot of people who are naive. Now, that requires you to pursue a level of discernment in maturity as Colossians one in the prayer that Paul prays for the church of Colossae is with spiritual wisdom and understanding. So not just having head knowledge. So one thing I really encourage young people in the ministry, even us that have been doing it for decades, is to never forget that our responsibility is to help people who are all walks of life, feeble-minded, controversial, annoying, right? People who are naive, people who are ignorant. Ministry oftentimes is not fun. It’s not trying to pursue a sweet spot, doing what I love to do, you know what I mean? So if you find what you love to do, you’ll never work a day in your life. I completely reject that notion. Ministry is the hardest thing that we are called to do as human beings, if you’re called to do it, but it’s the most rewarding. Okay. And that’s what you want people to have that mindset. Now, as you do that, I mean, there’s practical things like, again, if, you know, I do really highly encourage people, especially if they’re pastors to be married. I started when I was single. Do you want to talk about another regret? But you don’t know what you don’t know when you’re young. You don’t know, yeah. But that was something that I started to pray with some people in my life. Number 3, always remain teachable. Because as you and I know, when you become, quote, experts in different things and you become a published author and you’re always doing interviews and people are asking you questions, you go around thinking that you know everything. And the reality is to let people know is be teachable, be curious, be inquisitive. Don’t always think that you know everything. Surround yourself with people. That’s one thing, if I may, that I love about the culture that we’ve created as faculty at Summit is that we all respect what each other does and when i need help in something specific i know who to call i call you for something specific or i call sean or jim or frank or something like that and i so then the other thing is to let people in the ministry know is like it’s not just having friends like kind of having a life outside of ministry the other thing that’s so important we could do an entire show just on this is there’s a difference between ministry and fellowship And I think what happens with people in ministry, because we’re always centered around a brand or a particular type of movement, everything at that church becomes our life. And we expect the church to provide every service for us and provide friends for us. And that’s not always the case. So people that are in ministry, there has to be a healthy, productive outlet that they actually have. So they’re not just consumed with everything under the sun pertaining to the church. I call that the 4 wall syndrome. And a lot of ministry people have it, Scott. And then what happens, so if you’re trying to help them in their personal life to have fellowship, within a community of people that’s not just, quote, ministry. So they can actually feel safe. Then it now becomes a mindset psychologically where they think everything through the lens of their ministry. And that’s not good. There’s a lot more going on outside of your 4 wall church. And so what I try to also help Christians that are called in ministry, and we all are called, we know that we’re all ambassadors of Christ, second Corinthians 5, but we’re talking about people who are full-time who receive a tithe from the congregation to shepherd and do ministry. Or like in us, you and I running nonprofit ministries. We’re a parachurch organization where we assist the church. That’s what we do full-time. Whether it’s podcasts, articles, books, speaking, lecturing, consulting, we are investing in the local church into families. So what we have to make sure that what we’re doing is that the kingdom of God is far bigger than our quote little platform. And so I try to help people too in ministries. Don’t just be limited in your denomination or your branding. Look at what God is doing. Now, you may do something that you see down the church down the street from you because maybe let’s say they’re a little bit more Pentecostal than you. But you can learn. And the sad thing is, is we become so divisive through the categorization or the separation of our thinking in ministry that it becomes a philosophy rather than a way of life. And so we have to be careful, I think, also with that in helping people that are in ministry to see the kingdom of God is far bigger than just the denominational lines that we draw. I want to jump back to something you said just a moment ago, because it’s something I’ve noticed, and I wonder if you’ve seen it as well. And you were talking about a willingness to be teachable. I am finding that, and I don’t want to pick on any one group here, but I’ll use their initials, who go by the initials millennials, tend not to be real teachable. I have tried to mentor some that think they know it all, they begin to experience some initial success and platform recognition, and they start to think they do know it all. And when I start to point out some of the things they may want to watch out for, they don’t They don’t respond. I know for me, I can go back to 2002 when God rang my bell real good. I had 3 things happen in a year. first of all, I was soaring. I had just been on focus on the family. I had just finished a summer doing a very successful summer camp at Hume Lake where I trained over ten thousand students in the summer. And that’s heady stuff, okay? That’s big stuff happening. And I had completed a book manuscript. So things were feeling real good. And then the Lord sent 3 things to me. And I do say he sent them to kind of round off my rough edges and make me teachable once again. The first thing that happened is I did a debate where I didn’t do so well. It wasn’t that my overall argument was bad, but I just didn’t tactically succeed in that exchange the way I should have. And I caught a lot of heat from my side who thought, man, you blew that one. Well, that was humbling. Then secondly, this was a biggie. I got a email from a philosopher in Australia who read something I had written and he absolutely tore apart my pro-life argument. Now, I had thought up till that point, I was invincible, that I could just walk in and, you know, anybody who’s pro-abortion, they’re just dumb. We can kill them with arguments. And I agree our argument is superior, but there was a sense of I’m invincible here. I can just take anybody on, Peter Singer, anybody, bring them on. I’m ready for them. And This guy raised some questions I didn’t have answers for, and I had to turn to others to help me work through it, which was humbling. And then the third thing that happened is somebody falsely accused me of a character flaw, what they thought was a character flaw. Now, they were wrong. But there was a kernel of truth in it that had to do with arrogance and wrestling with that and coming to terms with that was not fun. It was painful. And I moped around for a good 6 months trying to work through all this. But then I remembered something that Chuck Colson said to me once. He said, Scott. The Lord will never let you see your full impact lest you become proud. And he’s also going to send things your way that will be very painful and you will almost view them as devastating, but they are from the Lord. Do not make the mistake of saying this is just a satanic attack. No, it’s the Lord sending these things to you to keep you grounded, to keep you humble. And I look back on those times that forced me to grow, to turn to others, to be less cocky in my approach. I was extremely cocky in my late thirties. I really thought I had it all in that if you were doing pro-life work, I knew how to do it better. And even if you’d been in the movement 35 years, I probably knew better than you what needed to be done. I mean, that’s the level of arrogance that had set in with me. And it’s funny what happens when you’re 38. You’ll debate anybody. Yeah. When you’re 64, you’re like, I’m not sure I want to debate a middle school student because debates always have pitfalls and they are minefields and you become more humble. You realize, you know, I don’t want to just pretend I can march in and take charge of any situation and win. And the Lord does that over time, and I think there’s a reluctance among some of the younger people out there that are entering ministry. Their platforms grow rapidly while they’re still young, but they have not been rounded off yet by the discipline of the Lord. I guess that’s the best way to put it. They haven’t had those hard things happen in life yet where, like you, you had to face some really tough angles in your life that needed to be addressed with. you know, me getting confronted in 2002 with a sharper thinker than I was, with someone questioning my character, with the fact that I needed to look more deeply at my own life. And these are things I think maybe those that are watching right now, if they’re starting off in ministry and they’re starting to get a sense of their own success, which we applaud and we’re glad for, we need a farm team. But don’t despise the Lord bringing some very painful things into your life, and it is He who is sending them. It’s very tempting to dismiss them as, oh, that’s just somebody being mean, or that’s the devil. No, it’s the Lord disciplining you so that you can finish this race and have long-term success. That’s right. Yeah, I mean, just hearing you, I mean, let’s go back a little bit. One thing, yes— that I’m thankful that I did early on. And I think too, Scott, because you’re right, let’s go back a little bit to millennials. And this is not, I’ve said classic book, Coddling the American Mind, investigating millennials and seeing how soft, that’s why they’re referred to as snowflakes and there’s a lack of resilience. And then you have Gen Z, which I’ve raised, that were born after 2000. There’s some upticks, some good signs within Generation Z, obviously, unlike millennials to some degree. But not all millennials are like this. But you’re right. And we’re just speaking in one spectrum, in one particular field, and that’s in ministry. What tends to happen, because millennials were the ones that obviously are digital natives, and so it become very customary for them to be online, so to speak, to have a social presence online. And as time went on and they started to placate to individualism because our faith was already going from the public sphere. This is terminology from Francis Schaeffer and Chuck Colson and Nancy. They started to become a privatized, individualistic thing. And we’ve seen that shifting, of course, from the Enlightenment and dumbing down the divine and the supernatural, so stripping people of their imagination. But what happens is that they internalize this in a self-individualistic way, in a very adulterous way. so social media placates to the person so over time when people are like well i’m going to be talking about defending the gospel like you said whether it be a pro-life apologist or giving a defense for for for god’s existence and i got a social media platform now that i’ve been putting out there when i get out of school you know every afternoon which a lot of millennials were doing right and then the rise of the smartphone in 2007. So, you know, in ten years, a lot of these guys who were in high school and as social media grew, and the different types of profiling from twitter which now is x to instagram to snapchat they take advantage of these things well then if you take the if you take the conglomerate of these people that are millennials in ministry and let’s say they have a hundred thousand in total followers and you are 30 years older than them and you’ve been in ministry before they were even born Here’s the truth. A lot of them will say, okay, let me examine Scott, Jason, whoever, And they don’t have as much of an impact as I already do. Why do I need to listen to them? The credibility that they look to is followers, not character. That is a major flaw that we are seeing undertaking for quite some time. Now, look, at the same time, Gen X, my generation, baby boomers, there’s a responsibility that we need to take, obviously, at the same time. And I do see that with people like you, myself. We try to do that, okay? But you’re right. They’re not looking when they can say, well, my church is bigger than your church. Why do I need to listen to you? There’s that mentality. Which is always a dangerous place to be to disqualify someone because their platform is smaller or their footprint isn’t as large as your own. But having a large number of followers does not mean you’re making disciples who can make it long-term. And that’s something that when I think some of these younger guys and gals, they do look at their platform and think, I’m already doing great work. I remember talking to one individual who said to me the following. He said, my work has so much prophetic impact right now. that it’s unstoppable, was the basic gist of what he said. I got news for you. We are all stoppable. We can be dropped in a heartbeat from what we’re doing. We are not invincible. We’re not invincible in terms of our character. We’re not invincible in terms of our personal holiness. We can all hit pitfalls very quickly. And I think that humility to remain teachable is essential for long-term success. Hey, before we wrap up here, can you tell people about how to find you online and mention your books that you’ve got out there right now? Yeah, I mean, one last thing just on that is I still think that anybody that’s listening that has a call to ministry, again, we need faithful stewards. We need people who it’s not about them. It’s about the Lord. I know we can say that it’s easy to say, but I’m thankful for you. People who listen to your podcast, your show, they know that they can, they have a trusted voice, a mentor in your words, a man who carries himself very well. And I know this personally because I’ve seen how you’ve loved your family, your children. and your wife and your your parents you know um you know you’re you’re the real deal and i and that’s why it’s a blessing to have some of these challenging conversations so to speak because oftentimes people can can you know be very eloquent in their speech about things but they’re not really living it but you have the character that builds that credibility so i commend you for that So yeah, the website that people can check out the ministry is called stanstrongministries.org. And we have several books. One of the things that we try to cater to the populace, to families, is to provide kind of cultural apologetic stuff at their level. So if you love to have challenging conversations with people, or if you hate to have them, I wrote a book called challenging conversations and it helps deal with a lot of controversial topics that are happening in the church. Outstanding book. I might add. Thank you. And we’re actually working on a whole new series, a video series that we’re going to be putting out there with Frank and other people and other platforms, uh, right now media. Um, so they can check that out. Uh, also there’s parenting Gen Z that I wrote with focus on the family. So if anybody listening, uh, or watching has a child who was born, you know, after 1997 to about 2016. That book is for them. I wrote it personally with the help, obviously, of my wife as we raised 4 Gen Zers and our ministry predominantly is to that demographic of parents and young people. with parents that are millennials and Gen Xers. And then another one that I recommend for people to check out, Scott, is my most recent book. And if people have issues with progressive Christianity or they want to learn and this was not just a primer. This was actually providing historical and theological scholarship to address the hijacking that’s taking place that progressive Christianity is doing in our churches. They’re not just going into the mainline churches. They’re trying to go into the conservative churches. And that’s called hijacking Jesus, how progressive Christians are remaking him and taking over the church. And then the last thing is, like you, we have a podcast we do at the Washington Times called Challenging Conversations, and you’ve been on there several times. I bring in people like you, and we have challenging conversations to help equip the body of how to properly speak the truth in love. Well, you’re doing fantastic work, brother. I’ve seen you in action at Summit working with students like I’ve been there working with students. I appreciate you. Thanks for jumping on with us today. And I would encourage all my viewers, contact Jason at his website. Go to Stand Strong Ministries. Check out the book resources he mentioned. I have read several of those titles myself. I’ve read Hijacking Jesus. I’ve read the Parenting Gen Z book. I’ve read Challenging Conversations. So I know that you’re delivering great content. I appreciate you for that. And let’s continue to uphold this up-and-coming generation that we’re going to pass the torch to soon enough and pray that God sustains them and keeps them in the faith so that they can do the good work in front of them. Appreciate you, brother. Thanks for joining us. Hey, everybody, be sure to visit us on our social media sites, scottklusendorf.com. If you haven’t yet got a copy of the second edition of The Case for Life, you can pick one up there. You can also enroll for our course and learn how to defend your pro-life view the way Jason has learned to defend Christianity in general. We’ll equip you to make a difference, and we want to help you with that, give you resources so that you can be that good ambassador for Christ. Thanks for joining us. I look forward to being with you on our next episode.